Ever wondered what it would be like to get to know a chimpanzee? Here we chat with Bob Ingersoll, someone who really knows.
Bob Ingersoll is one of the key characters in the new documentary film Project Nim which follows on the ups and downs of the extraordinary life of a chimp called Nim in a crazy human world.
Bob met and befriended Nim when he was a psychology graduate working at the Institute for Primate Studies in the US. These days Bob is a passionate campaigner for the welfare of animals in captivity.
Not many of us are lucky enough to get to know a chimpanzee like you did with Nim. Has your experience with Nim changed your view of animals generally?
Yes it has. Nim was the first chimp I met. Before I met Nim, like most people I had only ever interacted with a dog or cat at home. I didn’t really have any idea of the kinds of issues affecting animals. For instance I wasn’t vegetarian. In a sense Nim opened up that world to me.
Do you think all chimpanzees have their own personalities?
All chimpanzees most definitely have their own personalities. Just like humans. But before I worked with chimps it never occurred to me that chimpanzees or any other animals had personalities.
They are all individuals. I’ve now interacted with literally thousands of animals - horses, dogs, cats, turtles, birds and over 13 or 14 different species of monkeys. It’s always been my experience that every single one of them is different. Each one of them actually has their own issues, personality, upbringing, their own baggage, to bring to the relationship. Each one of them is different.
Do you think all animals have their own thoughts and their own feelings?
Yes I think they do. A dog thinks like a dog. A cat thinks like a cat. There’s some really amazing literature now, such as an article about what it’s like to be a bat. Bats don’t think like humans they think like bats. They think.
And there’s no question that animals feel. They must feel. Presumably they feel something similar to us. In my experience this is very easy to see when you allow yourself to do so.
The original intention of Project Nim was to learn about chimpanzees, however during the film some very strong human characters emerged. What do you think the film tells us about human behaviour?
I think it tells us that humans are extraordinarily arrogant. To be able to take a baby chimp away from its mother and put it in a strange situation and not even think about the consequences. We were so thoughtless in the sense that the chimp didn’t matter - it was a pawn. A pawn for scientific gain, academic gain and the personal gain of certain individuals.
The reality is that animals deserve respect and should be treated with dignity. There’s going to be a world without animals if we don’t get it together pretty soon. To me that would be a real shame.
The United States is one of the few countries in the world which still use chimpanzees for experiments in laboratories. Do you think we’ve moved on and what have we learnt from Nim’s experience?
No, we obviously haven’t moved on very far in the US. Thankfully the European Union is a little bit ahead of the curve. We’re working really hard now to try to change the tide and press the Congress for a Protection Act.
I think this film will add a major component to the public’s understanding of exactly what’s going on behind those closed doors using federal money. I certainly hope that enough people see this film, and they are incensed about what their money is being spent on in the name of science in the United States. I hope the film will bring some attention and then some action. And I think it already has. A number of people, groups and politicians are interested and are making a difference.
The film makes it clear that chimps deserve to get out of those little birdcages you see them in. We’re hoping to help the 2,500 chimpanzees in captivity in the United States in labs, in human homes and any number of inappropriate contexts. We’re hoping that there’s some legislation and public understanding that there needs to be a dramatic shift. We must fund proper sanctuaries, with the amount of money that it takes to do this the right way.
You clearly don’t like the idea of keeping chimpanzees as pets. How do you feel about keeping chimpanzees captive in zoos?
Well I don’t really like zoos. It’s a personal thing. Zoos are not about the animals, they’re about human needs - the visitors, the employees, the budget or tourism or any number of things. They are not about the animals. So I don’t have a good feeling about zoos. But I don’t want to slam all zoos because I think there are some zoos out there that are doing as much as they can to help animals.
Jim Mahoney said that the abuse of animals starts when they are put in a cage and it all goes downhill from there. I think that’s a very accurate statement, and a zoo is a cage.
Here at OneKind, we are an animal welfare charity and we work to inspire people about animals and to re-connect people with the other animals with who we share the planet. Do you think the human-animal bond is broken and if so what do you think we can do to try to mend it?
Yes I do think it is totally broken. I think that films like this help. And talking about it really helps a lot. Engaging in dialogue is a lot more important that yelling at one another.
I do think there is a way to access animals in a way that we can all be proud of. I’m not exactly sure how we do that. It’s very difficult because the world is driven by money so unfortunately everything is about how much you make or you don’t make. It’s never to the animals’ advantage. We don’t think about the animals first.
Let’s hope that you at OneKind are able to show people that we get a lot more out of things when we aren’t taking all the time. We need to give a little bit more. We’ve taken so much, now it’s time to give back.
Do you think we can learn things from other animals, and if so what can we learn?
We can learn a lot from other animals. We can learn that they think, that they feel, that they have families, and desires, and needs, and they are everything that we are. Sometimes humans forget that we’re animals too. So the reality is that we are born animals, we have a life that’s full of richness and culture, just like all the other animals. When we try to separate ourselves from other animals, it’s really a kind of delusion. We’re animals just like they are. Maybe we should get off our pedestal and hang out more with some animals.
Finally, what effect do you hope the film will have on people, and what would you like to see change as a result of the film?
Well I hope that people in America will pick up their phone and call the National Institute of Health and call for an end to experiments on chimps. I hope it will affect the pet trade in the United States and all over the world. I hope that people realise that chimpanzees and monkeys and all sorts of other animals are exploited in films and television and entertainment. I hope that all stops. That’s the kind of thing that I’m hoping for.
I know that the film has already made a difference because people respond to the film in a way that’s emotional. I think that’s positive.
Let’s hope we can all make a difference by getting to know Nim. After all, we’re all in this together.
(The above excerpts are taken from an audio interview with Bob Ingersole in June 2011.)
Read OneKind’s review of Project Nim, which goes on general release in cinemas on the 12th August.
OneKind is currently campaigning to maintain the UK’s welfare standards for animals used in experiments which are under threat. If you’ve not already done so please add your name in support of our campaign.